East-Religions.2.3: Charles Ess (cmess) Tue, 23 Sep 1997 22:28:05 CDT (13lines) You're on to an important problem in the Vedanta tradition - this is why there are at least three major schools, not just one: they split on the question of the source and status of maya and ignorance, precisely in light of the claim that Brahman is the one true reality. At the same time, however, this philosophical question does not ultimately undermine the experiential and/or "religious" foundation of Vedanta: whatever the philosophical puzzles, the constant experience is that the individual self is illusion caused by ignorance, ignorance is overcome through knowledge/meditation - and the resulting experience of unity/Brahman confirms the fundamental claim. The situation in the West is not much different: philosophical queries are often overridden by direct appeals to mystical or religious experience.

East-Religions.2.4: Kurt Koenig (kkoenig) Wed, 24 Sep 1997 01:41:36 CDT (26lines)

Several ideas/questions:First: The claim is made that we must ovecome our ignorance to find atman. This cannot be obtained through action but only through the destruction of ignorance through knowlege. HHmmm. The way to Brahman seems to entail many actions. It seems that one must live a cettin wy to allow ignorance to be admonished. Isn't thius action. Granted I am making an assumtion upon the definition of action. The atmabodha defines action as "which is associated with the conciousness of doer, instrument, and result". Perhaps this can be explined if I realize that when I see Brahman that the reality that I know as a concious being becomes less real and therefore, this ction is no longer applicable as I know it now.Two class periods ago we went through "shock therapy". We looked at the relation of the self and its subsiquent senses and its place in time. This therapy has helped me to understand the relation between Brahman and my current state of reality. This self that we contemplated was something aside from the time and my senses, yet the question was posed whether this self would exist without these seperate lesser realities. Brahman is said to exist beyond us and is not dependent on our reality. Therefore, does the self I know9my soul) exist without my senses? it is hard to imagine this "self" "existing" without my senses and time referance to bring it together. Or is this just because I am ignorant, through lack of knowlege, of the true nature of reality?

East-Religions.2.5: Laura Schmutz (lauraann) Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:20:00 CDT(11 lines)It would make sense to me that people would have no problem with completing their castely duties and focusing on the self for a while, then decide that they were tired of the birth/rebirth cycle. The point at which you get tired of the cycle would probably occur at about the time that your soul was ready for enlightenment. You have to be aware that what you are doing by fulfilling your castely duties is preparing for the realization that Brahman and you are one in the same. You must fully experience the other side in this case in order to fully appreciate the oneness with Brahman. It is a live and learn principle. Human nature would say that you must become aware of lack of true purpose, before you can go on.

East-Religions.2.6: Jeffrey Huston (jhuston) Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:12:23 CDT(6 lines)Exactly! Even though fire does the cooking, you've got to put the food in the pan. The second verse states that only knowledge, not any other action leads to Brahman. However, through different austerities or other actions, one becomes ready in mind and spirit to begin searching for self-knowledge. One can only do that with the appropriate tools.

East-Religions.2.7: Jeffrey Huston (jhuston) Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:06:02 CDT(10 lines)Aha! Self Knowledge solves the crisis of the resurgence of previous and outside traditions by adapting ideas from all of them. A religious melting pot if you will. Yes, it is similar to buddhism, but think about it, if you are worried that a new religion will take away some of your followers, why not adapt yours? Give them what is inticing your followers to stray and then make it better to maybe get some of their followers. You want experiential unity with the divine, well hot damn! You are the divine you just don't know it. Read this book and we'll tell you about it. If only there were infomercials thousands of years ago.

East-Religions.2.8: Laura Schmutz (lauraann) Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:03:07 CDT(41 lines)My section of the book was passages 59-68, which is really the end of the text, but serves as a good starting place to examine the text. As I said in class, in passage 59, it says "All objects are pervaded by Brahman, all actions are possible because of Brahman; therefore Brahman permeates everything," This is basically saying that nothing can be separate from Brahman because Brahman is within everyone and everything. In passage 60, it claims that Brahman "...is neither subtle nor gross; neither short nor long; without birth and change; without form, qualities, or colour." Here it is conveying that Brahman is indescribable. There are no words or claasifications to use in reference to Brahman.

In the commentary explaining passage 61, it talks of Brahman being both self-luminous and illuminating the world. In class we discussed the senses, which view objects. The self illuminates the objects, but what illuminates the senses? The self does, which is illuminated by Atman, which is illuminated by Brahman. Passage 63 says that "Brahman is other than the universe. There exists nothing that is not Brahman. If any object other than Brahman appears to exist, it is unreal, like a mirage."

This backs up the idea that Brahman permeates everything, which is given in verse 59. The apparent contadiction between the first and second sentences is clarified when you see Brahman as infinite and the universe as finite. Because it(the universe) has a beginning an an end, there must be something else surrounding it. Because everything is Brahman, this cannot be possible. In verse 65, it says that "Atman is Reality and Consciousness, and ever present everywhere..." Atman is the soul, which is present everywhere as Brahman is because it is Brahman. Verse 67 describes Atman as "...the Sun of Knowledge...the Pervader of all and the Sustainer of all." It also shows that Atman is self illuminating. This is only possible because Brahman is self illuminating and all is Brahman, which would make Atman self illuminating.

Verse 68 seems to sum up what the whole book is trying to tell you needs to be done in order for you to realize that you are Brahman. It also serves as what I consider as this text's definition of freedom:immortality.

"He who, renouncing all activities, worships in the sacred and stainless shrine of Atman, which is independent of time, place, and distance; which is present everywhere; which is the destroyer of heat and cold, and the other opposites; and which is the giver of eternal happiness, becomes all-knowing and all-pervading and attains, hereafter, Immortality."

East-Religions.2.9: Jeffrey Huston (jhuston) Wed, 01 Oct 1997 03:29:17 CDT(66 lines)

Atman is the manifestation of Brahman in the individual. To know Atman is the know the self of man. The pure consciousness of knowing Brahman is in fact to be Brahman. One cannot wake up one morning and say, "Today I will understand and know Brahman." Verse one in the ATMABODA states, "I am composing the ATMABODA, or SELF KNOWLEDGE, to serve the needs of those who have been purified through the practice of austerities, and who are peaceful in heart, free from cravings, and desirous of Liberation." One must be mentally and spiritually prepared to begin the quest of self knowledge. The austerities Sankara refers to are the austerities of the body, of speech, and of the mind. Austerity of the body requires worship of the gods and the wise, cleanliness, uprightness, and nonviolence. Austerity of speech entails speaking truthfully, not harming others with words, and study of the Vedas. Austerity of the mind includes inner serenity, kindliness, self control and purity of heart. One must practice these austerities regularly in order to begin the quest for self knowledge.

Knowledge alone is the only key to Liberation. Ignorance of the reality of Atman and Brahman keeps us from knowing the truth. The attainment of knowledge is not new but is a rediscovery of the Self hidden by ignorance. Verse 6 states, "The world, filled with attachments and aversions, and the rest, is like a dream: it appears to be real as long as one is ignorant, but becomes real when one is awake."

Verse 7 continues, "The world appears to be real as long as the nondual Brahman, which is the basis of all, is not known. It is like the illusion of solver in an oyster shell." What we perceive to be real is in fact an illusion. Only Brahman exists. We place names on things because of ignorance. We believe these things to be real as long as Brahman isn't known. What an ignorant person sees as the world is , to a knower of reality, nothing but Brahman. It is believed that cause and effect are the same. One may have a gold bracelet or a necklace, therefore, the gold would be the cause and the bracelet the effect. In reality however, the name is just something superimposed on the cause. Regardless of whether one has a bracelet or a necklace, it is still gold. Like the gold, Brahman is the cause of everything, regardless of the name. There are three upadhis, or limiting adjuncts, that appear in man that cover up the true meaning of Atman. The three are the gross body, the subtle body, and the casual body. The gross body is the "medium through the Soul experiences pleasure and pain."(Sankara 130)

This is basically how the body reacts with the world surrounding it. The subtle body is the "instrument of the Soul's experience."(Sankara 131) The subtle body includes all of the sense organs, the muscular system, the mind, and the buddhi, or intellect. The casual body is made of Avidya, or maya, that is the ignorance that causes the actual bondage of the mind and Self.

Verse 15 states that, "One should, through discrimination, separate the pure and inmost Self from the sheaths by which It is covered, as one separates a rice kernel from the covering husk by striking it with a pestle." The three bodies form a shield that blocks the true Knowledge of the Self, Atman, and Brahman. One must recognize that these sheaths are distinct from the Soul before becoming detached from them. Detachment from these sheaths lead to Knowledge (of the Self, Atman, and Brahman) and Freedom. When Sankara speaks of freedom, he means liberation from the chains of ignorance. Until we know of Brahman, we live in what we perceive to be real but what is actually an illusion. Though ignorance may be bliss for some, one cannot describe in words the sense of being one with Brahman.

Like coming out of Plato's cave, becoming One with Brahman is not for all. However, once this occurs being free from the perceived world and out of the endless cycle of birth and rebirth is definitely attractive to those prepared for the search. I would like to conclude with the line from an old Hindu spiritual: Free at last, free at last, thank Brahman almighty, we're free at last!"

East-Religions.2.10: Kurt Koenig (kkoenig) Wed, 01 Oct 1997 09:07:38 CDT (67lines)

Attempting to know Brahman is not an easy road. To break the ties of ignorance to this world is no small task. However, to discover what is real is possible in this lifetime. Through reading Patanjali and Sankara the goal and path for "enlightenment" has beeen presented to everyone.

At the onset of our venture into these texts we were faced with two crisis. The first was to explain the purpose and cause of the emergence of this older, somewhat Indus, idea of experiential unity with the divine. In reading Sankara and listening to Pantanjali it s quite evident the reasoning for this emergence. People were becoming restless under the new caste system instaled by the Aryan's. In order to give the caste system more accountibility the Aryans held the individual responsible for their place in society. It was my own encounter, or experience, with divinity that decided my caste. By introducing Karma, the accumulation of worldly things became important for the transition into a better caste in the next life. This encouraged people to cary out their role in society. However, as this system grew the rich became richer and the poor became poorer. Once again another crisis occured. People began to lose hope when the goods of this world were harder to obtain and harder to hold on to. Once again poeple wanted more. They needed a reason to continue to live their lives and play their roles. It seemed that they were doomed to poveryt because as the cities grew material gain became an unattainable goal. Once again the Aryans gave the people hope. they claimed that if you were dissatisfied with the accumulation or earthly goods and through this acumulating Karma then there is still something for you. Everyone has the freedom to retract from this world and find an infinite reward in Brahman. The Pantanjali says how to do this and Sankara tells us all why this is a noble goal in the first place. Once again the problem is solved. This new idea of unity with Brahman gave people hope. It was something one could persue when frustrated with the infinite cycle of death and rebirth. Brahman, and the knowlege of truth, was also attainable in a lifetime. Pantanjali tells the road to take while living in this body to know ultimate reality outside of this body. However, one doesn't need ti die in order to acheive the knowlege Brahman. Ignorance can be destroyed while I am living in this world.

Actually it seems neccessary to start here. In sections 46-57 in Sankara the effects of enlightenment in this world, and how one will live with this enlightenment in a world of ignorance are revealed. In "verse" 46 Sankara begins by telleing us we willl no longer have a notion of I and mine. We will be free from these titles. an enlightened person will still recognize these ditinctions in the world but will not need to participate with them. an analogy is made in the next verse to help the reader understand what this perosn will see. He writes that when I look at a jar it is all clay and is nothing other than clay and when I look at the world it is all Atman and nothing other than Atman exists. This enlightened person living in a body is called jivanmukta or a man enjoying freedom through living n a body. This person gives up previouse ties with the body, the mind, and senses. Sankara writes "Relinquishing attachment to illusory external happiness, the Self-abiding jivanmukta, satisfied with the bliss derived frm Atman, shines inwardly, like a lamp placed inside a jar."

In passage 52 the jivanmukta is said to wlak around the earth like a dumb person. He will be emotionless and calm while not participating in any actions toward a selfish goal or end. The enlightened person must remain in the body until the momentum of his past karma runs out. Then he will fully emerge into Brahman and becomes ultimate reality of which he has the knowledge. This is complete freedom and bliss. The freedom found in Brahman is unlike any we talk about on earth. This freedom relieves us of struggle and brigns total peace. ehaven in Christianity may be a worhty comparison. However, one may experience Brahman in this life and there is no concept of eternity ir forever because, unlike god, Brahman always is, timeless, one, and unchanging. I have always associtated the ability for me to change as much as I want with freedom but here to become unchanging is true freedom.

East-Religions.2.11: Amy Newton (anewton) Wed, 01 Oct 1997 10:37:28 CDT (66lines)

Before we can even begin to understand the Atmabodha and the way to self-knowledge, it is necessary to understand the concept of Atman. In our reading, this particular passage sums up the basic definition of Atman and the quest for Brahman:

The word "Atman" is generally rendered here as "Soul" or "Self." The Sanskrit word really cannot be translated. Atman is the deathless, birthless, eternal, and real Substance in every individual. It is the enchanging Reality behind the changing body, sense-organs, mind, and ego. It is Spirit, which is Pure Consciousness and is unaffected by time, space, and causality; therefore It is limitless and One without a second. As the unchanging Reality in the individual is called Atman, so the unchanging Reality in the universe is called Brahman. Brahman, too, is beyond time, space, and causality and is all-pervading spirit. Vedanta states that Brahman and Atman are one and the same. The knowledge of this identity or non-difference is called Self-Knowledge, which confers upon a man the boon of liberation from the bondage and suffering of the world (Atmabodha 118).

Basically, Atman is changeless reality, absolute knowledge, and everlasting bliss (135). Atman is knowledge itself. Atman is the "nut" that remains constant in ourselves. It is our stability. Atman is present in the "embodied" soul (jiva), yet is distinct from it. Atman interpenetrates the body, sense-organs, etc., yet is totally different from these things. Atman in Unchanging Consciousness (vs.17). Atman is merely a witness to reality. It is not active (vs. 18). Atman is free from all human experience, feeling, and emotion. These things are attributed to the body, senses, and mind. The essential nature of Atman is Eternity, Purity, Reality, Consciousness, and Bliss. It is important to note that these things are not "qualities." They are a part of the nature of Atman. They are always present (vs 23).

It is vital to understand that Atman (soul) and Buddhi (mind) cannot be unified. No real union is possible between two contradictory things (vs 24). Atman never undergoes change as the mind does, and Buddhi is not endowed with consciousness as Atman is. Atman manifests inself in all material objects, but cannot be manifested by them. Atman manifests itself (vs. 27-8). Atman and Brahman are non-dualistic entities. "What is necessary for the attainment of Liberation is actual realization of the knowledge of the non-duality of Atman and Brahman" (p. 145). We cannot believe one is greater than the other, just as we cannot believe in the duality of Brahman and ourselves. They are one.

The great Vedic Aphorisms help a person to realize the oneness of the individual soul and Brahman (Supreme Soul). These aphorisms are: 1) That thou art 2) This Atman is Brahman 3) Consciousness is Brahman 4) I am Brahman The realization of identity of the individual soul and Brahman enables one to attain the Highest Good (vs. 29-30). When we truly understand these aphorisms, we realize identity.

A good summary of Atman can be read in verse 34 of the Atmabodha:"I am without attributes and action, eternal and pure, free from stain and desire, changeless and formless, and always free" (vs 34 p. 148).

O-kay, great, a person might say, but what is freedom? What does freedom mean? To the people who believe in and follow the Atmabodha, freedom is the opportunity to quest for self-knowledge and Brahman within themselves. Freedom gives them the chance to believe, journey, and achieve self-knowledge. Freedom allows for them to overcome ignorance and become one with themselves. Freedom is something that is necessary within themselves. It is a self-freedom. It has nothing to do with being free within society. The caste system remains intact because the freedom of the people who believe in the Atmabodha is not a societal freedom, but a freedom to believe and journey within themselves.