East-Religions.3.1: Jeffrey Huston (jhuston) Thu, 02 Oct 1997 18:10:40 CDT
(3 lines)
Hello and welcome to the Bhagavad-Gita home page! If youhave any
questions, comments, or general gripes, please contact Mr. Motet
because he cares.
East-Religions.3.2: Jeffrey Huston (jhuston) Thu, 02 Oct 1997 18:22:11 CDT
(11 lines)
Okay so let me get this straight, right in the middle of a battle,
Arjuna decides he doesn't want to fight and kill his kinsmen on the
other side. Krishna tells him that there is no sin in killing the bad
ones. He then goes on to tell Arjuna the yoga of knowledge? Is he
still on the battlefield when he shifts gears? Anyways, he goes on to
say that by practicing just a little yoga someone can be released from
the cycle of life and rebirth (I'm detecting a different viewpoint
from what we've been reading.) It seems as if both Patanjali and
Sankara have been combined in this essence, kind of like a greatest
hits album I guess. What happened to the let's go whoop some ass from
the first part of the chapter?
East-Religions.3.3: Laura Schmutz (lauraann) Fri, 03 Oct 1997 08:01:52 CDT
(10 lines)
If you read the introduction, you should notice that in the
Mahabarata, a clean spirit and true understanding of the way to
Brahman is more necessary in order to attain immortality. The Paduvas
actually go to heaven, which has not been mentioned before. Unity
with Brahman has never been mentioned as heaven. One of the
Panduvas is allowed in due to his own accord, but the others are
allowed to be with him due to his pure heart and spirit. He is tested
periodically, but I do not believe he ever actually practices what we
would call Yoga. The meditation is so infused into everyday life that
we cannot tell the difference between the two.
East-Religions.3.4: Amber Campbell (acampbel) Tue, 07 Oct 1997 23:04:51 CDT
(28 lines)
Questions on Gita 2.The yoga of knowledge
a.)"Indifference"-supported by the Parmenidean argument(36)
Through class discussion and readings, this is the quote 'What
is is' and 'What is not is not'. In the Gita it states, "That which
is non-existent can never come into being, and that which is can never
cease to be. Those who have known the inmost Reality know also the
nature of is and is not,"(pp 36). At this time Arjuna has been
driven in his chariot between the two sides on the battlefield.
Recognizing family and friends on his enemies side, Arjuna throws down
his weapon and says he will not fight and kill his kinsmen. Krishna,
his chariot driver in disguise, uses philosophical(like quote above)
and religious solutions to Arjuna's dilemma. In class we discussed
that Arjuna is from a world of senses- of many different things with
belief in becoming and destruction. Therefore for this time Arjuna
would believe that killing was a way of destruction and wrong.
This is a dualistic or good/bad worldview or logic. This dualistic
approach says that killing one's kinsmen is bad. Proposed the
question-if this is worldview, why should Arjuna fulfill his caste
duty? This is why Krishna offers a different worldview of mind where
one unchanging Being exists the Atman/Brahman. This gives answer or
solution to Arjuna's objection by stating that he is not really
killing his kinsmen. Since Atman is not subject to change, Arjuna is
only killing the body, not really them. The body is simply an
illusion. "Bodies are said to die,but That which possesses the
body is eternal. It cannot be limited or destroyed. Therefore you must
fight,"(Gita, 36). Arjuna can go ahead and fulfill his caste duty as a
member of the warrior caste and fight the battle.
East-Religions.3.5: Amber Campbell (acampbel) Wed, 08 Oct 1997 00:44:29 CDT
(127 lines)
b.)Perspectives:from the standpoint of the enlightened; from the
standpoint of the caste(38-39)
"This Atman cannot be manifested to the senses,or thought about the
mind. It is not subject to modification. He Who dwells within all
living bodies remains forever indestructible,"(Gita, 38). Once again,
this new complementary logic of mind shows the world of the body as an
illusion. The Atman is the only thing real and it is indestructible.
My opinion is that to be "enlightened" is to realize Krishna's new
worldview that one can actually liberate the self from the karmic
cycle while fulfilling caste duties. Motive behind this is
non-attachment. That is, fulfilling one's caste duty without taking
credit or being attached to the actual caste duty. In class we
discussed that this was a way to suspend, but not destroy the
self.
"Even if you consider this from the standpoint of your own caste duty,
you ought not to hesitate;for,to a warrior, there is nothing nobler
than a righteous war. Happy are the warriors to whom a battle such as
this comes:it opens a doorway to heaven," (Gita pp 38). In other
words, do your caste duty for your own sake and get liberation from
the self through the karmic cycle. Allows the preservation of self
while fulfilling your caste duty.
"But if you refuse to fight this righteous war,you will be turning
aside from your duty. You will be a sinner, and disgraced. To a man
who values his honor,that is surly worse than death,"(Gita, 39).
Krishna goes on to say that Arjuna will be actually committing a sin
if he does not fight his kinsmen, for that would be neglecting his
caste duty. This is another way to fulfill the caste system.
"Die, and you win heaven. Conquer, and you enjoy earth. Stand up
now,son of Kunti,and resolve to fight. Realize that pleasure and pain,
gain and loss, victory and defeat, are all one and the same: then go
into battle. Do this and you cannot commit any sin,"(Gita, 39). (I
found it interesting that heaven was mentioned in the Gita,since
Patanjali never mentioned it.)
According to this passage, Krishna is telling Arjuna that if he can
realize the new epistemology of the unchanging Atman and that the
world really exists without change or attention, Arjuna can't sin by
killing his kin. If Arjuna is enlightened, no sin will be committed.
c.)Doctrine of "actionless action"- non-attachment (40f.)
This passage of non-attachment is the motive behind Krishna's
persuasion of Arjuna to fight. Non-attachment allows for the
fulfillment of one's caste duty while obtaining liberation from the
karmic cycle and preservation of self. This is the solution to the
'why should I fulfill my caste duty' question raised by Arjuna.
"You have the right to work,but for work's sake only. You have no
right to the fruits of work and must never be your motive in
working,"(Gita,40). By not having to worry about rewards or
punishments for one's own duty,one is not attached to these duties.
While Westerners may say-where is the reward, this actually solves the
caste system crisis by allowing liberation of the self from the
karmic cycle.
"In the calm of self-surrender you can free yourself from the bondage
of virtue and vice during this very life. Devote yourself,therefore,to
reaching union with Brahman and then to act:that is the secret of
non-attached work. In the calm of self-surrender, the seers renounce
the fruits of their actions, and so reach enlightenment. They are free
from the bondage of rebirth, and pass to that state which is beyond
all evil,"(Gita, 41). In other words, if one can surrender the self
to where the self no longer matters to them and still interact with
fulfilling caste duties with which they are unattached, they can
become one with Brahman?? Is this the secret behind non-attachment?
Late Vedic Ritual? Do you mean the three gunas??? Or do you mean the
conflicting interpretations of the scriptures stated on pg 41?
d.)How to become enlightened vs attachment(42f)
To become enlightened in the Gita is similar to Patanjali in
overcoming obstacles and distractions to have tranquility of mind and
become one with Brahman. "Free from fear,free from anger, Free from
the things of desire. I call him a seer, and illumined. The bonds of
his flesh are broken,"(Gita, 42). Like Patanjali, to become illumined
or enlightened means separating mind and body. One must be free from
the physical before the realization of Brahman.
Unlike Patanjali, Gita liberation enables one to wage the battle of
life, while Yoga sutra liberation entails isolation of spirit from all
worldly concerns,(Patanjali,11). This kind of belief system allows an
individual to retain a sense of individuality or self and still stop
the karmic cycle. Before the Gita, one had to renounce the self in
order to become one with Brahman. Now one can still be individual,
which is important to many people, while still being able to fulfill
their religion.
Gita doctrine revolves around the idea that action (caste duty
fulfillment) should performed with spiritual skill and in an attitude
of sacrifice. Gita characterizes "skill in action" as a skill
achieved only when understanding breaks through delusion (or
enlightenment occurs) and remains immovable,(Patanjali, 11). When one
can become enlightened about non-attachment, then the illusion or
delusion of self disappears. The caste duty can be fulfilled through
non-attachment and one can still end the karmic cycle. One is
performing their caste duty and spiritual practice at the same
time.
Attachment occurs when "thinking about sense-objcts will attach you to
sense-objects; grow attached, and you become addicted;thwart your
addiction, it turns to anger;be angry , and you confuse your
mind,"(Gita,42). The self is gone if one is enlightened with the
non-attachment logic. Therefore, the self should no longer be any
concern to the enlightened. Self no longer matters since it is an
illusion. The only thing that is real is Atman/Brahman. Once this is
realized work can be done, but only if one is not attached to the
fruits of their labor. If you think about your senses or
sense-objects,like greed,hatred,desire, then one can revert to
attachment to the self. They are not enlightened if the self still is
important. Is this correct? To be illumined, one's thoughts must be
still like in Yoga Sutra.
As I see it attachment is wrong. To become one with Atman, one has to
be able to realize and work within the new worldview of
non-attachment. Arjuna can live with killing his kinsmen in this type
of worldview since he is doing what he is supposed to do-fulfill his
warrior caste duty in a non-attached way. Since the body is an
illusion anyway with only Atman(which is indestructible) existing,
Krishna argues that Arjuna really isn't even killing his kin. I found
it an interesting shift from Patanjali's impersonal self/Brahman
concept to Gita's new personal God of Life and Death in Krishna.
Krisha appeared to me as a friend or teacher to Arjuna, very personal
God. This is very different from the earlier Vedic texts we have
discussed. Krishna is Brahman visiting Arjuna to explain why Arjuna
has to fight his kinsmen and that only through this fulfillment of
caste can Arjuna become enlightened.
East-Religions.3.6: Charles Ess (cmess) Wed, 08 Oct 1997 10:47:08 CDT (9
lines)
Terrific work, Amber!
While there are a few places
where you would want to polish
and expand in order to more fully
and clearly explain the point at
hand - this is an excellent draft for
a formal response to the questions
presented, one quite close to a
first-rate formal paper.